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Court TV Radio - Sirius 110
August 08, 2007
7:30 am EST (U.S.)
New York, NY
Court TV Morning with Vinnie Politan

On August 08, 2007, COURT TV's satellite radio program, Court TV Morning with Vinnie Politan, on Sirius 110, interviewed Mark Henkel, the Founder of the TruthBearer.org organization, on the air. He had been on the show several times previously. Filling in for Vinnie Politan, Court TV's trial correspondent, Michel Bryant, hosted the show.

The purpose of the interview was for a two-fold pro-polygamy response. The first pertained to the August 7, 2007 parole of the "polygamy Tim McVeigh," Tom Green. The second pertained to the upcoming September 2007 trial of the Mormon-based FLDS leader Warren Jeffs.

To explain all that, and to re-iterate that both Green and Jeffs (and the crimes for which they had been ultimately convicted) are only a certain brand of MORMON polygamists and they do not have the support of normal pro-polygamists around the country, Mr. Henkel was asked to share his thoughts on the show.

A number of callers asked Mr. Henkel a number of questions, most of which are the same kinds of questions frequently asked about polygamy. being the National Polygamy Advocate, Mr. Henkel was easily able to provide comprehensive answers.

As substitute host, Michel Bryant asked some very good questions and kept the show's discussion very enjoyable. And Mr. Henkel was able to provide some very good soundbite answers. What now follows is the entire transcript of the interview.

Interview transcript

[Opening song playing:] Trying to love two aint easy to do when you're trying to love two it sure aint easy to do MICHEL BRYANT: You certainly have that right. Let me tell ya a quick story here. Utah State prison, last Tuesday, a man walked out of that prison, free? Mmm, well, not too sure about that. He just served six years for bigamy, criminal non-support, child rape, and he really just wants to quietly re-join his family. His legal wife and three other women, his 30 or so children - about 20 of them under the age of 18 - and he will be on parole. And believe me, he will be under state scrutiny. Bigamy, polygamy - bigamy means two, polygamy means many - as we get to the root word of things here. This is Court TV Morning. Michel Bryant with you in Vinnie Politan's place. He has kinda taken one more morning off after vacation. He will be on the air at Court TV at 9:00 AM, so uh, you know, he's probably rising and shining just about now. Vinnie, thanks you for letting me warm your seat here for the day. 1-866-***-**** is the number, and uh, we're gonna talk about polygamy now. The story I just mentioned is, is a relatively rare story because, although polygamy is such a huge kind of a hot-button topic, there are relatively few people that are practicing. This guy, the guy I mentioned from Utah who just got out of prison, his name is Tom Green, and uh, he's not sure what he's gonna do. We have some help here on the phone to try and help understand exactly what polygamy is, what it isn't, and maybe reference this Tom Green. My guest may know exactly who this guy is and what the story is. On the phone with me is Mark Henkel. He's the founder of TruthBearer.org . He is the the National Polygamy Advocate. Mark, thank you for joining us. I appreciate it. MARK HENKEL: Well thank you for having me. MICHEL BRYANT: So, let me just - Do you know about this Tom Green guy? MARK HENKEL: Yes. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok, tell me what his story is. MARK HENKEL: Well, from the polygamy movement, we consider him the "polygamy Tim McVeigh." MICHEL BRYANT [chuckling]: Ok. MARK HENKEL: He is not a "poster boy" of polygamy in any way, shape, or form. We opposed all the crimes of the welfare fraud and the underage and all that business that he was involved in. And we, the national movement has actually even issued press releases and op-eds saying that if he's sincere about his so-called apologies and so forth, he will disappear instead of being a media whore that he was trying to be. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok. MARK HENKEL: So he is absolutely not an example. Basically, he would use his Mormon Polygamy religion - because there are other forms of polygamy as well - and he would use that and, the women that he would marry that had daughters before, he would marry them too. And then ultimately, he supposedly had like different ten women at one point or over time, but half of them are gone and the ones that remain were the daughters of the ones that left. So it was just a crazy, crazy situation and no example of polygamy. No polygamist has been convicted of any crime of polygamy. It's been the other charges of other crimes that they should be charged for, such as the criminal welfare fraud and the underage and all those other things that are not what polygamy is. MICHEL BRYANT: Right. WellI mean, that's like Al Capone finally getting nailed for tax evasion. It's, you know, it's, it's a way to get the guy, but you're saying that polygamy in and of itself has not been prosecuted. Is that what you're saying? MARK HENKEL: Polygamy is no different than co-habitation of consenting-adults. It's the other crimes that are crimes. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok. So tell me, obviously, you're distancing yourself from Tom Green, and I'm assuming you'd do the same from Warren Jeffs? MARK HENKEL: Absolutely. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok. MARK HENKEL: We issued a press release, glad that he was caught. Same exact thing. Again, that was a rogue Mormon Polygamy sect, the FLDS, that he's a leader of, that has arranged marriages and underaged marriages, and basically the entire sect sacrificed their mind to his leadership. That's more of a sect and cult issue, not so much what polygamy's about. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok. Let me lay down some foundation here for some of these folks we're talking about, especialy Warren Jeffs, because his trial is coming up in St. George Utah in about 4 weeks, give or take. They'll select a jury, they think they can do it in a day, I'm not so sure about that. I will be out there to cover that trial for Court TV, and I've been doing my research and reading my books. There's actually a DVD out - maybe you've seen it, Mark? It is a documentary of Warren Jeffs. And it's not a favorable documentary, so that's why I'm wondering if you've seen it or not. Um, but he's going to be tried for two counts of rape as an accomplice. Now, the basic story is, that uh, Warren Jeffs, the self-proclaimed prophet of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saint church "hooks up" folks, basically, uh within their Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints church organization. He arranges marriages. On the phone with me is Mark Henkel, the Founder of TruthBearer.org and National Polygamy Advocate. We're talking, really, about apples and oranges, I think, Mark, when we talk about the Warren jeffs situation and what you believe to be - I don't know, how would I describe this? - the a, the a, pure polygamist? The um, the true version of polygamy? MARK HENKEL: Unmodified polygamy. Natural polygamy. Consenting-adult polygamy. MICHEL BRYANT: Is that a contradiction in terms? Natural polygamy? I don't know. MARK HENKEL: Sure it is [natural]. Sure it is. I mean, you ask some guys who are, I would say not mature enough to handle it, but you ask some guys, and they'll say that polygamy is what they were naturally made to do. [[Chuckling.]] MICHEL BRYANT [[Chucking]]: Ahh, yeah, we used to call them, we used to call them, dogs is what we called them. MARK HENKEL: But like I said, such an individual would actually not be mentally or emotionally mature enough to be able to handle the mature relationship necessary in consenting-adult polygamy. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok. So let me, let me give you the moment to say, "Here's our Mission Statement. " We at the uh, the uh, national polygamy, what do you, do you have an association? Do you have a - MARK HENKEL: TruthBearer.org is the uh, is the name of our organization. MICHEL BRYANT: TruthBearer. TruthBearer. MARK HENKEL: Right. MICHEL BRYANT: That sounds as little defensive to me. Truth [Chuckles] Bearer. Uh, you know like hey, you guys aren't believing us, we're gonna name ourselves something that sounds like we're telling the truth. MARK HENKEL: [[Loud belly-laugh.]]. MICHEL BRYANT [[still chuckling]]: We know we got a strike against us anyway. MARK HENKEL: Right. MICHEL BRYANT: So what is your definition of polygamy? MARK HENKEL: [Intentional pause.] Consenting-adults choosing what they would choose to do, according to the First Amendment of "Freedom of Assembly" that - since 1994 there's a new movement, and the internet made it possible, where it was impossible before, called Christian Polygamy. And this is evangelical Christians that read the Bible and realize that the Bible never created the invented doctrine of "one man, one woman." And we see across the country a wasteland of abandoned single moms and marriage-phobic males. And it's ridiculous. And so, we're talking about men who grow up and care about women, and see this great tragedy, and want to help women become the best that they want to be, based on their ability - not some kind of a chest-pounding tryannical [thing], but actually a laissez faire economics, teaching men to grow up and care about women and be capable. Whether they marry others or not is irrelevant, but the key is, is that when men start growing up and stop being afraid of marriage, and start caring about women, then that gives women options. If you have ten men and ten women, if nine of those men are jerks, "one man, one woman" has oppressed nine of those women. MICHEL BRYANT: Wow! Ok. So, let me, let me back up here. [Pause.] Why - how, how do I put this? - MARK HENKEL: Sure. MICHEL BRYANT: You just - why get married many times? Why not just, you know, uh, shack up? MARK HENKEL: Well, "shack up" is, is a lack of commitment. Polygamy, and, and as a correction to your statement at the very top of the show - bigamy is the legal term and it means all additional secondary marriages. So - MICHEL BRYANT: Right, yes "bi" is second. MARK HENKEL: Right. So second, third, and fourth are all counts of bigamy. So whether - it doesn't necessarily mean that a person with more than two wives is a polygamist versus one with only two is a bigamist. They key is that the law recognizes any second, third, fourth or additional as a secondary - illegal - and therefore doesn't recognize it. So that's why bigamy is the legal term. Polygamy is the anthropological term. MICHEL BRYANT: Ahh, ok. So I stand corrected. MARK HENKEL: Sure. MICHEL BRYANT: So, again, I get back to the same point. Especially in this day and age, I mean, why, why bother with the ostracization and, and go through the marriages - just hang out. Just live together. MARK HENKEL: Well, on a legal sense, that's generally what is happening across America. The, the - much of the media wants to give you the image that all polygamy is based on the MORMON polygamy paradigm, which is a different reason for why polygamy is practiced and the reason it has some obligations upon women - which is why America, being so for choice, is against it. But if your talking about normal consenting-adults that don't use the Mormon Polygamy paradigm, but rather as a caring - say for example, an abandoned single mom. She's a hamster-in-a-wheel, working in a trap to either work just to pay for low-paid strangers to raise her children or she's gotta go on welfare. Give her the option, and say, for example, a man who's a proven quantity, cares about woman, has already proven he's a great husband and father, then she has an opportunity to maybe join a family like that. Now she can thrive, she can choose what she wants to do. One wife wants to work, another one wants to stay home, they get to choose what they want to do - and they know the children are being raised by someone who loves them instead of some low-paid stranger at daycare. MICHEL BRYANT: How does, how's your position received. You know, how are you out there in the, uh, you know, the community? When people hear who you represent, what you're promoting, what's the reaction? MARK HENKEL: We have found, most people could care less what consenting adults choose to do. Ultimately. We have the TruthBearer Agenda, which basically, is to achieve the de-criminalization of polygamy. We're not after legalization, but rather de-criminalization because otherwise government starts defining who's allowed and who's not. What we're saying is a government - Constitutionally, by the Tenth Amendment, because "marriage" is not written anywhere in the Constitution - the government doesn't have authority to be defining marriage in the first place. It's a freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of assembly, and freedom of speech issue. So it's not just freedom of religion. The - it's a Tenth Amendment issue, really. MICHEL BRYANT: So - MARK HENKEL: The - go ahead. MICHEL BRYANT: No, no, go ahead, finish your thought. MARK HENKEL: The, so what we're doing is we're helping our fellow conservative Christians - and we've been recognized as evangelical Christians, understand, and we're not Mormon - and understand that one, it's completely Biblical. "One man, one woman" was an invented doctrine that came years later when Christianity went from being the persecuted faith of Jesus Christ to becoming the political powerhouse of the catholic institution and doctrines started changing. It's not in the Bible. "One man, one woman" is not in the Bible. By helping THAT constituency - that we're FROM - understand that, and that we're about helping women and creating a laissez faire economics - which, of course, is also conservative - then THAT constituency understands. Like a "house of cards," the "first floor" of a "house of cards" of political constituencies comes crashing down. Feminists, who believe women should have a choice, certainly, if a woman chooses this, they have to accept this. Cultural conservatives would like to provide opportunities through non-governmental means to provide opportunities for abandoned single moms to have better opportunities and families, they certainly can embrace this. And most people, generally speaking, if they're not coming from any of these specific constituencies, could really care less what consenting, un-coerced, non-abused, consenting-adults choose to do, most people would care less. MICHEL BRYANT: Mark Henkel, Founder of TruthBearer.org. Mark, I'm gonna talk to you about a couple things, like that HBO show, Big Love, and we'll get to some calls here coming up in, in just a few minutes. The number here is 1-(866)-***-CTTV, 1-(866)-***-****. Mark is, as I said, the Founder of TruthBearer.org. He is a National Polygamy Advocate. And you know, Rulon Jeffs, of course, you know, he ran the show there out in Utah, before Warren Jeffs, right? MARK HENKEL: Yes. MICHEL BRYANT: Well, he had 75 wives 'till he died in 2002. You know what he died from? Nagging! MARK HENKEL: [[Belly laugh.]] MICHEL BRYANT: That's a little known fact. Ok, we're gonna, we're gonna cut back here in just a coupe of moments with your thoughts and your calls and Mark Henkel. [Song playing off to Break:] Love and marriage, love and marriage Go together like a horse and carriage [Break] [Beach Boys' song:] Two girls for every boy! MICHEL BRYANT: Welcome back to CourtTV Morning. I'm Michel Bryant in for Vinnie Politan. He will be back on the TV airwaves at about 9:00 o'clock this morning. And he'll back in this chair to join you guys after his well-deserved vacation. 1-(866)-***-CTTV, 1-(866)-***-****. I'm Michel Bryant, CourtTV News Trial Correspondent, and fill-in for Vinnie today. On the phone with me is Mark Henkel. He is the Founder of TruthBearer.org. He is the National Polygamy Advocate. We're talking about, um, many wives. And the right way to do it, according to Mark, and maybe the wrong way according to Warren Jeffs, who will be on trial for uh, accomplice uh to rape in about four weeks. And I should point out, very clearly, Mark is not from Utah. He is not, uh, Mormon. And he's not at all connected to the controversy that's taking place out there. Mark, can we take some calls, what do you think? MARK HENKEL: That sounds great! MICHEL BRYANT: Ok, let's go to Carlos in Indiana. Do you have a question for Mark? CALLER, CARLOS: Yeah, I have two questions. Number one, um, he, in the span of five minutes that he was on before, he mentioned um, basically, someone taking in a single mom, who's, you know, trying to burn the candle at both ends, trying to make ends meet. Um, if that is one of the major justiifcations for um, polygamy, in his view, why not just invite them to live in their home, um, and not have conjugal relations with them. Just basically, be nice and have someone live in your home, and provide them with a home and some guidance. But not, um, you know, not uh, become their husband. Um, if that - it would seem to me that that would be a perfectly reasonable way to help someone out, without the complications of uh, committing bigamy for all practical purposes. Um, and then I guess my second question is that, does he recognize that when our nation was founded, bigamy was uh against the law, uh, you know, in in the 13 original colonies. So it's not like the States just all of a sudden decided, well we're gonna outlaw bigamy. Um, you know, we have a tradition here in the United States of, of uh, barring people from contracting second marriages. MARK HENKEL: Wow! Those are two big questions to answer; I'd be glad to answer them. I'll try to do it as briefly as I can. First, the issue of the single mom, the position that was just advanced in that question is actually rather, uh, cruel and anti-choice for the woman. It suggests that the woman doesn't have needs, and maybe she would like to have a good man. We're talking about good men, and you know, just as there are men who have super-skills such as a Tiger Woods of golf has super-skills in golf, and, and, Michael Jordan of basketball, there are men who have super-skills as a husband: emotional, psychological intimacy, and the ability to do that. So what you've just said by that suggestion is, well no good. Well, wait a minute, why can't that woman have an excellent man? You're depriving that woman of her choice if that is what she would like. Second question, the idea about the country founded. America, we really want to go back to how, how people came to the New World, was to flee government controlled by the Catholic institution. The kings had to bow down to the popes and decrees, to enforce their doctrines. So America and Protestantism which occurred saying that the authority under Catholicism is not appropriate, not correct, that's what created Protestantism. That's what brought people to the New World was wanting to be free of government controlled by the doctrines of the Catholic institution. The "one man, one woman" doctrine is indeed an invention of the Catholic institution. And government has absolutely no authority to be re-defining, or enforcing the doctrines of that institution's doctrines. CALLER, CARLOS: Well, I, I, I, I guess I tend to disagree. The pilgrims who came over here in 1620 , um, you know, they were, they were Protestant. Now, obviously, they were Church of England, but they didn't submit their, themselves to the authority of the Holy Father. That's number one, I guess, in rebuttal. Number two, um, I guess can you assure me to a reasonable certianty that the first wife wouldn't feel some sort of jealousy toward the second wife, when the second wife is, is sharing the emotional support, physical intimacy, um, of her husband, who she, whom she had married before the second wife? I, I, I think the assurance that no jealousy would be found there, um, would seem rather hollow to me. MARK HENKEL: Well, first of all, let's, let me help you understand. We have what's called "The Standard" and the standard is called "Love-Not-Force." And that nobody would bring in another wife in marriage if the original wife was not already embracing that and accepting it fully. We totally agree with you in opposing any kind of coercion or anything of that nature. You know, just because someone is not capable of understanding this level of emotional, psychological intimacy that a man is capable of giving - just as a father is capable of loving more than one child and there's no jealousy there- it's capable, a husband having marital love and intimacy and care for more than one wife. Just because some don't understand that higher level of maturity it takes to understand women and care about women and let them choose to be what they want to be - doesn't mean it's not possible. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok, Carlos, thank you, thank you for that. I appreciate it. Mark, let me jump in here just to remind folks that uh, we are talking to Mark Henkel. He's the founder of TruthBearer.org - National Polygamy Advocate. Uh, Mark, I think you'd have to agree that the emotional issues here - I mean, you know, sometimes one wife is enough to drive you nuts. MARK HENKEL: Absolutely. [Chuckling.] MICHEL BRYANT: And one husband, to be fair. MARK HENKEL: Sure. [Still chuckling.] MICHEL BRYANT: Um, so, so, you can understand Carlos' concern. MARK HENKEL: Sure. MICHEL BRYANT: And I know you're not, uh, unfamiliar with people disagreeing with you. MARK HENKEL: Right. [Huge laughter.] MICHEL BRYANT: We've got Donna in Michigan now. You want to correct something Mark had to say? Donna? CALLER, DONNA: He says the Bible doesn't mention anything about marriage and one husband and one wife. And in the book of Genesis when God created Adam and Eve, He brought Adam to Eve and said, um, For this cause shall a man leave his father and his mother and cleave unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. It doesn't say two, three, or four. He says they two shall be one flesh. That's from God. MARK HENKEL: Right - CALLER, DONNA: That's not man's idea. MARK HENKEL: Ok. Well, there are, uh, three reasons why you cannot use Adam and Eve as the example to justify government re-defining the doctrine of marriage. One is, is that, Adam and Eve had sons. Seth and Cain married wives. Where did those wives come from? It's possible - we're not laying down a doctrine either way - it's possible that there were other wives [of Adam], and that's where, and the daughters of those wives are who Seth and Cain married. We don't know either way - it's speculation. So, it can't be used for that, that's number one. Number two, you can't use the idea of creating "govermment marriage" as a defining - definition by Adam and Eve because Adam and Eve never had a wedding. There's no example of a wedding. There's no example of "government marriage" anywhere in the Bible. It's a brand-new modern invention, "government marriage." You will not find one single person in the Bible ever married "by government." And then, three, and this is really the kicker, and why Adam and Eve are not the doctrine to use is because Adam and Eve and the Genesis 2:24 - the "two shall be one flesh" - was written by Moses. We all know that. And Moses had two wives. He had two wives, and so clearly, the author of the Adam and Eve story, the author of the "two shall be one flesh," clearly knew what he meant when he wrote those things. And he certainly did not invent a "one man, one woman" doctrine out of a story he wrote as he had two wives. MICHEL BRYANT: Donna, thank you. Donna, I appreciate the call. And uh, you know, I uh, I have a feeling that you've encountered that question before this. MARK HENKEL: Just a bit. [Huge laughter.] MICHEL BRYANT [Chuckling]: You just whipped that answer right out of there. MARK HENKEL: [Still laughing.] MICHEL BRYANT: Uh, Mark Henkel is here. I'm Michel Bryant, filling in for Vinnie Politan on Court TV Morning. Mark is the founder of TruthBearer.org, the National Polygamy Advocate. Um, is that a self-title, you've given yourself there? Are you the guy, you the lightning rod for this topic? MARK HENKEL: Well, the uh, in terms of the organizing of the modern movement, that is what has uh, basically evolved, and uh, rested upon my shoulders. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok. Let me do this. Uh, and I, and I've taken great pains to distance yourself from, distance you from the Warren Jeffs situation. MARK HENKEL: Yes. MICHEL BRYANT: Because uh, the word, polygamy, tends to stir up certain emotions and there are various levels, and practices, I suppose - MARK HENKEL: Right. MICHEL BRYANT: - within that general term. Warren Jeffs going on trial in about four weeks for rape as an accomplice, the prophet of the Fundementalist Latter Day Saint church. Um, arranging marriages, and in the particular case, that we'll be covering on Court TV - and I will be out there for that trial in a few weeks - uh, is a situation in which a 14 year old girl was uh, to be married to her 19 year old first-cousin, a man she had known and didn't even like, kind of called him bully. Um, and uh, she was put into a marriage with him and forced to have sex with him, even before she knew what sex was. In fact, she had intercourse with this guy two or three times, and it wasn't until a friend told her it was sex that she realized she was having sex. It is a such a weird contradiction of, of, philosophies out there. You know, you got this, this protect the girls, we don't tell them what sex is, they don't know what p*n*ses is, or a v*g*na, they don't know any of the parts. But then they ask them to fulfill their husband's uh, needs, and they don't even know what they're talking about. They don't know what sex is. So, uh, I want to get back to, to, uh the phonecalls in just a sec here, with Mark - but before we do that, the victim, the alleged victim in this Warren Jeffs case, uh, took the stand for the preliminary hearing. And I was out there for it. It was dramatic. Uh, it was powerful stuff. And we have just a little bit of what she had to say while on the stand in the Warren Jeffs preliminary hearing. RECORDING of ELISSA WALL: I knelt down by his side, and he took my hands, and he says, Well, what can I do for you, sweetie? And so, I went on to explain what was going on, and my position. And that I wasn't trying to defy him, or to not take God's word, all I wanted was to at least have two years, or at least, not marry Allen. MICHEL BRYANT: Now, this woman - woman, I say - she was 14 at the time she was married to a 19 year old. And uh, because he uh, he was - I don't know, patient? Is that the right word? That they did not have sex right away. I mean, she was saying, I don't want, I don't want to be near this guy. I don't want him seeing me naked. I don't want to be touched. She would continually go back to Warren Jeffs, - this is her testimony- and he would say, "Get back in there. Do your wifely thing because, oh by the way, if you don't, you're gong to hell." Uh, so that is part of the coercive aspect of the crime as a rape as an accomplice: you can threaten, you can coerce, you can, you can uh, use physical harm. Uhh, obviously the argument by the prosecution now in St. George is that he coerced these people based on their religious beliefs, you know. A guy's got to have three wives or they're not going to heaven. The women need to fulfill their husbands' sexual needs and pro-create, or they're not going to heaven. So, not quite your take on things, right Mark Henkel? MARK HENKEL: Oh, completely. We, we completely oppose the ideas, yes. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok, let's go back to the phones now. Bonnie in Wisconsin. Mark Henkel is on the line. He's the founder of TruthBearer.org. CALLER, BONNIE: Hello. I just have a comment. You know, you're hearing more and more about p*d*philes. I am also a victim of that by my own biological father. And I'm just wondering, if my biological father woulda had more wives, would he have turned to his daughters? [Pause.] MICHEL BRYANT: Is that, is that a rhetorical question? Do you want Mark to comment on that? What? CALLER, BONNIE: Well, I'm just throwing that out there as an idea. You know, if, you know, uh, you know what I'm getting at there? MICHEL BRYANT: Ok, Mark, what do you think? MARK HENKEL: Well, I think the connection between anything underage to polygamy is ultimately erroneous, uh, one. And two, it's not about men having sexual opportunities. It's about men growing up and caring about women, and women having opportunities of good men. MICHEL BRYANT: What do you think about the "Big Love," the HBO show? Do you watch that? MARK HENKEL: Yes. MICHEL BRYANT: What do you think? MARK HENKEL: Well, again it goes back, it's more of a quasi-secularized Mormon polygamy. They use the Mormon polygamy paradigm, which has, in it, the kind of doctrinal obligations that you just described about three wives and all that business. And that's not representative of all polygamy around the country, of course. But, with that said, some of the uh, the political persecution, and the things that are described in the movie, uh the TV series, rather, does uh, are fairly close to accurate. Uh, in terms of the, you know, constantly - the media absolutely - every time you see polygamy in the media, you will see a criminal or you will see a Mormon polygamist. And that is, a media-puppetmaster, if you will, deliberately trying to deceive America because it knows America does not like Mormonism and does not like uh, the crimes, of course, and therefore is constantly trying to prevent people from having a rational, intelligent discussion about normal consenting-adult polygamy. So, the fact that it does show some of the good political persecutions - good, meaning it's good that it's showing what it really is like, and the difficulty of having to hide, and the terror that goes on. That's good [that it's being shown]. Some of the unnecessary lascivious, sexual things that I think are a little bit gratuitous for the show, uh but again, it's HBO, and they're certainly not targeting uh, people that really aren't interested in that in anyway. MICHEL BRYANT [Chuckling]: How about, how about that giant back yard? I mean, is, is, is it a bizarre situation in which you'd have homes that share yards, that share property, and you put a false front on for the public. Is that just ridiculous, how about that aspect? MARK HENKEL: Well, it's - understand, polygamy, really, it's whatever consenting-adults would choose to do. Some choose to have separate houses just like that. Some choose to have, uh, all in the same house. Some - you know, it's whatever the, the relationship itself. It's not monolithic that "all polygamists do the same thing." Whatever is reasonable and functional for the emotional dynamic of each individual family and the choices they make. MICHEL BRYANT: You know, I just - my, my problem, Mark is the whole, "Lets get married" thing just to more than one person. Because you, I think you can have virtually all the things you're talking about without breaking the law by getting married. Jay in Connecticut, you have a question for Mark? CALLER, JAY: You talked about how men are, are emotionally able to handle the women and multiple women. But what do you think about the situation in reverse? What about women handling multiple men. MARK HENKEL: Well, this is where we say we are after de-criminalization. Again, constitutitonally, government has no authority to be involved in marriage because of the Tenth Amendment. If it's not in the Constitution, the government doesn't have any authority. And then it goes back to a "Freedom of Assembly" - whatever consenting adults choose to contract with each other, government has no authority to be interfering with that, first of all. And second, it doesn't have any authority to be criminalizing it, which is even worse. We're talking about what normal consenting-adults choose to do. [Pause.] Does that answer question? CALLER, JAY: Yeah, as long as you think it's okay both ways, I really don't care what they do. MARK HENKEL: Well, even, even if religiously I do not support the idea of uh, polyandry, which is what you're describing, if government has no authority then whatever consenting-adults choose to do, then let them choose to do it. Anthropologically, uh, it's going to happen very infrequently at all. Uh, and frankly, even if you de-criminalize it, it's not like everybody's going to suddenly to "turn polygamous." And that's just not going to happen because, again, not everybody is a Tiger Woods of golf, not every man is that level of maturity as a husband to care about women. MICHEL BRYANT: Thank you, Jay. And we're going to take one more call here. We're running out of time, real quickly, though. This is Mark Henkel, founder of TruthBearer.org, National Polygamy Advocate. He's joining me today on the Vinnie Politan show here at Court TV Morning. I am Michel Bryant, filling in for Vinnie. I'm Court TV trial correspondent, uh, and, uh, Ladybug, Kansas City, you got a question or two? CALLER, LADYBUG: Yeah, good morning. MICHEL BRYANT: Good morning. CALLER, LADYBUG: Um, you're not afraid to fish anymore... MICHEL BRYANT; Thank you. Day - or fish CALLER, LADYBUG: Oh no no no. You're a one-tenner. MICHEL BRYANT: Oh thank you. CALLER, LADYBUG: Welcome to our world. Um.. Good morning, Mark. How are ya? MARK HENKEL: Good morning. I'm doing very well, thank you. CALLER, LADYBUG: Yeah, if I remember right, um, Jefferson had a couple mistresses back then in those days. Sooo, that's just my comment on the old days, how things went, right? Anyway, um... MICHEL BRYANT: No, no - Was Jefferson, Mark, what, hat's the story on that? MARK HENKEL: Well, I know that he has been indicated that there are certain offspring, uh, that descended from - unfortunately, back in those days, when slavery occurred - uh, and that there are ancestors through Jefferson that occurred through, uh, a slave mistress, as I've understood that. I don't know all the details on that. I'm not an authority on it. I would say, however, that uh, you go back to the Bible, the greatest of them - Abraham had three wives, Moses had two wives, David had eight named known wives, known wives. God Himself described Himself as having two wives in Jeremiah 3 and Ezekiel 23. And Jesus Christ, when He told a parable - although not literal - He Himself described Himself in a polygamous sitiation in the Parable of the Five Wise Virgins in Matthew 25. So there is, there is certainly a history of, uh, of a greatness in individuals being polygamous. MICHEL BRYANT: So, Ladybug, take that, ok? CALLER, LADYBUG [Chuckling]: All right! MARK HENKEL: [Laughter.] CALLER LADYBUG: My question is MICHEL BRYANT: Yes? CALLER, LADYBUG: You have these wives, and you have these children, that's my first question. How do you support them? And my second question is, that I know that marriage was done by the government to gather revenue. So I don't care how many wives you have, how many husbands you have, what sex they are. The only people I feel that are lobbying against multi-marriage or "same-sex marriage" is insurance companies and uh, medical insurance and the IRS. Ok, how do you guys do your taxes? How do - you know - because what happens - MICHEL BRYANT: That's what I want. I want a practical question. CALLER, LADYBUG: Yeah, how you do your taxes affects us, the normal guy that has one wife, has three kids, and how do you support 'em? MARK HENKEL: Well, first of all, the idea of "how do you support women uh, and support the children," to me, strikes me as an anti-woman "sugar daddy" mentality that we reject. We believe that women are wonderful. I, I love women. I think women are incredible intelligence, incredible self-confidence, abilities to do whatever they choose to do. And certainly, if some women may want to aspire, and the fact is, is that polygamy provides them with a, an opportunity to perhaps pursue a career knowing their children are being raised by another woman whose personal choice is to stay home. So, certainly that provides even more income to a family. So, multiple adults in a family provides the possibility of a larger income. In fact, there's one family we know of, for example, where you had an abandoned single mom, and she was extraordinarily struggling. And then there was also a poor family. They all met in church. And they became a family. They traded off. One went to school while the other one watched the children. And then they were switched the other way around. Now they both have college educations and they're making income they never would have made - and they're thriving. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok! So, thank you, Ladybug. I'm all for the uh, the women working. I would not look at that as a "how does a guy support all these women?" I'd - get the kids, the dogs, get everybody working, that's what I say. MARK HENKEL: Well, as a matter of choice. MICHEL BRYANT: What is the average number of wives in a polygamous uh, arrangement? Is there an average number? MARK HENKEL: Well, it may be two or three. It, it's not a, it's not like it's a, uh, you know, there's some number. Again, it's an emotional dynamic. It's, it's geometric increase, in terms of emotional dynamic. In other words, just because you add another wife, doesn't mean you've doubled the uh, the emotional dynamics. You've, actually, two-to-the-squared it. You know, you've, you've made it a geometric progression, and increased it. For every, every, uh interaction with one, you've uh, there's a responsive reaction from the other as well. So, all these are required great emotional management. MICHEL BRYANT: You know, Ladybug had an interesting question about the taxes. I mean, do you do a 1040, or do you need a 1050 or 1060? What do you think? MARK HENKEL: Well - MICHEL BRYANT: How would he - how do you do that with all these people? MARK HENKEL: Well, in the current situation, uh, basically, one of those polygamous - it's, it's the government's viewpoint, would only perceive it as a married, legally married couple with a live-in girlfriend. Uh, so there is no, uh, ability, currently in tax law, income tax law, to be, uh, creating, you know, head of household and that kind of a situation. MICHEL BRYANT: Here's how to make it more likely to make it be legalized: just start taxing the additional wives. MARK HENKEL: [Huge laughter.] Well, ultimately, for wives, are forced to be uh, you know, head of household or uh, as single women. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok, just uh, as we get ready to wrap up here, your thoughts on the Warren Jeffs trial coming up. And before we do that, we have - how long is this little clip here of, uh more testimony? Can we squeeze this in? What do you think? [Pause.] Yeah, let, let, let's listen again. This is the alleged victim in the Warren Jeffs matter. She's, she's claiming, and she uh, is helping the prosecutors go after Warren Jeffs in St. uh George, Utah, for rape as an accomplice in an arranged marriage. This is the alleged victim. RECORDING of ELISSA WALL: He said, "Well, the prophet has directed you to do this." And I says I know but I just, I need to hear it from you. I need to know that he is aware of the situation and at least, ask him if he can give me two years. MICHEL BRYANT: Ok. We have virtually no time left, Mark, but what do you think? MARK HENKEL: Well, the thing is, is again, this isn't a case about polygamy at all. This is an underaged 14 year old being forced in arranged marriage to her 19 year old cousin who wasn't married. MICHEL BRYANT: I, I, I'm sorry. I hated to do that to you, but we gotta go. MARK HENKEL: Right. MICHEL BRYANT: We'll talk more about this, and we will, as the trial comes up. This is Court TV Morning. I'm Michel Bryant.

Michel Bryant, as guest-host for Vinnie Politan, was very positive about the interview. The TruthBearer.org organization once expressed its gratitude to the show for both the opportunity and for their treating Mr. Henkel so respectfully.

Advance orders for the audiocassette recording of this interview will eventually be made available only for TruthBearer.org MEMBERS.

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TruthBearer.org Media [Directory] Court TV Morning with Vinnie Politan March 28, 2006 - Response to "Big Love" September 05, 2006 - Response to Warren Jeffs Capture November 22, 2006 - Jeffs Hearing Proves Case not about Polygamy December 22, 2006 - How Polygamists Manage Christmas August 08, 2007 - Michel Bryant, Trial Correspondent (filling in) November 13, 2007 - Michel Bryant, Trial Correspondent (filling in)   [Members, Hear it online]