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Court TV Radio - Sirius 110
November 22, 2006
8:15 am EST (U.S.)
New York, NY
Court TV Morning with Vinnie Politan

On November 22, 2006, COURT TV's satellite radio program, Court TV Morning with Vinnie Politan, on Sirius 110, interviewed Mark Henkel, the Founder of TruthBearer.org, on the air. He had been on the show previously, March 28, 2006, in response to HBO'S "Big Love," and September 05, 2006, in response to Warren Jeffs capture.

The purpose of the interview was for providing the pro-polygamy response to the preliminary hearing of the Mormon-based FLDS leader Warren Jeffs. The day before - November 21, 2006 - Utah Prosecutors were attempting to make their case that there was sufficient evidence to bring this case to trial. In making that case, a 20 year old women was put on the stand, giving her heart-breaking testimony. She testified that, when she had been 14, Warren Jeffs had assigned her to marry her 19 year old cousin against her will. As the young cousin himself had had no other wives, it was thereby undeniably confirmed that the case is not about polygamy at all. As the hearing that day took an extended amount of time, the whole proceeding was continued to a later date, December 14, 2006.

To explain all that, and to re-iterate that Jeffs (and the crimes for which he has been charged) does not have the support of normal pro-polygamists around the country, Mr. Henkel was asked to share his thoughts on the show the next day, November 22, 2006.

As in the previous interviews, Vinnie Politan once again asked some very good questions. And Mr. Henkel was able to provide some very good soundbite answers. What now follows is the entire transcript of the interview.

Interview transcript

[VINNIE POLITAN: speaking about Warren Jeffs] ... Leader of this sect, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints. And this is the guy who was on the FBI's Most Wanted List, was caught, has now been charged with accomplice to rape. And, it's a statutory type rape deal, where we're talking about a 14 year old girl. He arranged, according to prosecutors, the marriage between this 14 year old girl and a 19 year old cousin of hers. She testified yesterday in a preliminary hearing, probable cause hearing, talking about what it was like, that she didn't know what sex was, she didn't understand it. When he unzipped his pants, she wanted to know what that thing was - very naive young girl. Innocent young girl. And now the question is, can you convict, can you even get to trial, the man who they call "The Prophet" who arranged this relationship, on a theory of "accomplice to rape." It's a tough legal battle for the prosecution here, but they want to go after this guy, because he's the leader of this sect that practices polygamy illegally out west. So, let's get reaction now from, he's been on the show before, Mark Henkel is a polygamous expert from TruthBearer.org and he joins us this morning. Good morning, Mark. [MARK HENKEL:] Good morning, how are you today? [VINNIE POLITAN:] Good. Let's clarify, first of all, that you're not a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, right? [MARK HENKEL:] That's correct. And not only so, but not even with regular Mormonism, the Latter Days Saints themselves. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Ok. You're a Christian. [MARK HENKEL:] Absolutely - evangelical. [VINNIE POLITAN:] But you believe in polygamy. [MARK HENKEL:] [Hesitating Pause] Correct - from a Biblical, not from the Mormon presuppositions. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Ok. But from a different perspective. [MARK HENKEL:] Aboslutely. [VINNIE POLITAN:] But it's still, the same laws we have in this country that make it illegal. So, what do you, what do you think, first of all, about the case against ths man who some refer to as "The Prophet," this Warren Jeffs? And it's, it's a - you know, he's not being charged with polygamy here. He's being charged with [emphasizing] ARRANGING this, this marriage, this relationship between an underaged girl and a 19 year old man. [MARK HENKEL:] Well, it confirms what we've been saying, that this case has nothing to do with polygamy. It has to do with forced arranged marriage. Even the relationship between the 14 year old and her 19 year old cousin didn't involve polygamy. I mean, there weren't other wives or anything of that nature. So the whole case is not about polygamy. Polygamy is a neutral term, and it's how you apply it. So, really the issues of, of criminality are the underage issue and the arranged - forced arranged - marriage of an underaged girl. That's something that us normal pro-polygamists around the country - not associated with FLDS - completely are against and don't support. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Now you just threw out a term there that some people might say, "Whoa, wait a minute, Mark. You just said, 'Us Normal pro-polygamists!'" [MARK HENKEL:] That's correct. Well, in other words, we're like normal everyday people around the country. We are not associated to the presuppositions - the reasons for, and how they apply their polygamy - that that particular group, the FLDS, with its leader, Warren Jeffs, the way they apply it. And so, the case proves: this is not about polygamy in any way, shape, or form; and, that really all its about is arranged marriage of underaged girl. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Ok. Now, let me get your thoughts on that, because, what do you think of, what is - 14, obviously, to me is too young for marriage. What are your thoughts about the age of this girl and the fact that she's with a 19 year old, and that there's a religious figure, "the Prophet," who is saying. "This is what you must do?" [MARK HENKEL:] Well, the religious compulsion, I mean, that, that is anathema to us. We oppose that. And the idea of forcing this 14 year old girl into this, we are so against it, and the whole underaged thing. We're talking about normal consenting adults, uh, is completely different from that application - where they've got his religious leader basically assigning people, and in this case, assigning an underaged girl to her cousin. You know, I mean, in the case, notice: they haven't even charged the 19 year old. [VINNIE POLITAN:] No they haven't. [MARK HENKEL:] So they may have a semantical difficulty in legally prosecuting him. That's, that's - we're actually more concerned that uh, they, they may fail to uh, fail to prosecute Jeffs and he turns into a hero, and he's not. We're not supportive of Jeffs at all. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Now, he's the leader of thousands of people. I think the estimates are about 10,000 people in his sect. [MARK HENKEL:] His sect alone. That's it. He's not a leader of polygamists nationwide, or anything of that nature. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Right. [MARK HENKEL:] His one little group in the one little area of one little geography in "Mormonland area" of the Arizona/Utah border. [VINNIE POLITAN:] How prevalent is polygamy in this country? [MARK HENKEL:] Well, it's in various - it's a, it's not monolithic. You know, there are different reasons and dynamics why people apply their polygamy. They're, they're, it's not like - [VINNIE POLITAN:] That's what we're trying, we're trying to get a grasp here on how common it is. Like, when we think about it, you know, me and the rest of the guys in the studio or just, you know, people that are listening, I think the image that comes to their mind is Warren Jeffs, is Big Love, the show that's on HBO, are these people that are out in Utah, and Arizona, and Nevada, out in these remote reaches, and they're all kind of this one community. They march to this beat of this drummer, and these are who the polygamists are. How many, outside of that area, where else do they exist? And what kind of numbers are we talking about? Are we talking about 100s? We talking about 1000s? We talking about tens of thousands? [MARK HENKEL:] We'd say about a few tens of thousands - [VINNIE POLITAN:] Really? [MARK HENKEL:] But we wouldn't say. uh - [VINNIE POLITAN:] Would they be in New Jersey? [MARK HENKEL:] [Big laughter.] Yeah, I had said that previously. Yes, certainly, anywhere from around the country, because everybody has different reasons. Some, uh, will, you know, there's, there's Christian Polygamists, there are secular polygamists, there are Muslim Polygamists. It's the application and the reasons why they, uh, you know, choose that as a, as an option for their lives. But are still forced to be quiet because, typically, the media - and they're doing it even in this case - continue to hype things that aren't true about polygamy. And the very fact that this case went to the FBI's Top Ten Most Wanted list, that isn't even about polygamy. There is not polygamy involved in any aspect. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Well, they're going after this guy because he's the leader of a polygamous sect. [MARK HENKEL:] Right, but that's the problem. It's not about polygamy. So the thing is, they're making - [VINNIE POLITAN:] Well, as Al Capone, they got him on tax evasion and that wasn't about tax evasion. [MARK HENKEL:] Right, but they're not going after - [VINNIE POLITAN:] And that's all that's happening here, right? [MARK HENKEL:] No, because they've even said, the prosecutors themselves have even said they're not going after polygamy in this. And this, even in, uh, Utah State Attorney General, they're not going afer polygamy. They're going after subsidiary crimes where those happen - such as, the underage, and the arrnaged and all that. And, we normal polygamists around the country, we support going after those other crimes, because those are the real crimes. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Ok. [MARK HENKEL:] Polygamy itself is neutral. [VINNIE POLITAN:] All right. So let's talk about the normal polygamists. [MARK HENKEL:] Sure. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Are there any women out there that have more than one husband? Or, is it always the other way around? [MARK HENKEL, answering the question while not speaking religiously:] Well, it is - certainly, people have, uh, you know, may choose that option. That typically falls within, within another uh, grouping, if you will, called polyamory. Uh, where, basically, it's, it's more of an anything goes type of, uh, type of liberal mind-set. But, typically, it usually, it's a matter of how it evolves. It's not like there's some [polyamorous] monolithic that says, "oh no, there shall only be men with wives and there shall not be such a thing as uh, you know wife with multiple husbands." It's just that guys don't want to usually do that. That's all. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Guys don't want to do that? [MARK HENKEL:] Exactly. [VINNIE POLITAN:] So women do? [MARK HENKEL:] Well, it's because there's some advantages for women, that's why. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Oh! Tell me the advantages. [MARK HENKEL:] Well, uh, women, for example, one woman wants to work, and another one wants to stay home, a family can organize themselves that way, and the woman working knows that her children are being cared by someone who loves the children, and instills her same values. It gives women the choice to, uh, to have that option. There are families where uh, where they were, had economic situation, where neither, uh, the original married couple could afford it, and neither could the abandoned single mom, they became a family. And they were able to trade off, and both were able to get a college education, and get real, good income opportunities that they never would have had, had they not become this. So, there are opportunities available for women. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Help us Mark, with the normal polygamists, the new wife is always younger than the old wife. [MARK HENKEL:] Not always. Actually, that's not true. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Really? [MARK HENKEL:] No. [VINNIE POLITAN:] No? [MARK HENKEL:] No [VINNIE POLITAN:] Aww, c'mon. [MARK HENKEL:] No, that's not true. [VINNIE POLITAN:] And I think that's one of the perceptions people have is that, the guy says, "All right, time for a new wife." And obviously, it's going to be a young wife. [MARK HENKEL:] Well, that's, that's just simply transference of one's own, uh, belief. It's just like the whole silliness of the sexual fantasy. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Are there really situations Where, where a guy may have a, who actually, a new wife will be older than some of the previous, existing wives? [MARK HENKEL:] We have families - absolutely, we have families in our organization that's already happened. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Get outta here. No way. [MARK HENKEL:] Absolutely. [VINNIE POLITAN, positively:] Really? [MARK HENKEL:] Absolutely. You know, understand, this is about mariage. It's not about uh, you know, age or, or collection of women. This is about men really growing up and really caring about women, and being mature fathers, and husbands, to really help women be what they want to be in their own choices. [VINNIE POLITAN:] We're speaking with Mark Henkel, TruthBearer.org is you're web-site, right? [MARK HENKEL:] Correct. [VINNIE POLITAN:] What's the purpose of the web-site? [MARK HENKEL:] Well, it's our organzational uh, you know, basically, it allows people to uh, know what we've done, where we're doing, and be able to even join the organization to get support - from pastors to uh, individual Christians in their own churches. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Are you afraid that the FBI is, is watching the web-site and keeping an eye on you guys? [MARK HENKEL:] Well, they may be. Uh, frankly, we have, when it comes to illegalities and so forth, you know, we are against all of the same crimes that they are going after. The problem we have, and is this, this case, for example, we wonder, if you didn't have polygamy related to the story, would this really have been elevated to uh, so important a level, so important a list as the FBI's Top Ten, which is so important. [VINNIE POLITAN:] No way. It wouldn't have been. [MARK HENKEL:] Exactly. [VINNIE POLITAN:] If it wasn't, it wouldn't be in the news and we wouldn't be talking about it now. [MARK HENKEL:] And that's the problem is that, because this case, as it just proved in yesterday's [November 21, 2006] uh, hearing, that there is no polygamy involved in those charges. There, you have one man, one, one 19 year old and one 14 year old girl, no other wives involved. You have, what you have is the criminality of underaged arranged marriage. And all the rest of us, we oppose that. So, so we're on the same page, if you will, with the FBI regarding those crimes. The problem is, is that it's being associated with polygamy - [VINNIE POLITAN:] Right, it's being wrapped around the whole thing. [MARK HENKEL:] And it's not even about polygamy! [VINNIE POLITAN:] And that's one of the reasons we have you on - [MARK HENKEL:] Well, that's great! [VINNIE POLITAN:] - to Help us with this story. Uh, thank you so much for joining us. It's always, uh, great to have you on the program. Mark Henkel, polygamist expert, TruthBearer.org is the web-site. And uh, Happy Thanksgiving to you and your entire family, however big they may be, Mark. [MARK HENKEL, chucking:] Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. Thank you. [VINNIE POLITAN, still laughing:] This is Court TV Morming Sirious 110. I was just thinking about this, Jonesy, could you imagine being a polygamist on Thanksgiving? [Sidekick, JONESY:] Oh my! [VINNIE POLITAN:] How long would that table be? [Sidekick, JONESY:] Right. [VINNIE POLITAN:] Oh my goodness! [Sidekick, JONESY:] Or how many servings would you have to eat? [VINNIE POLITAN:] Yeah!

As always, the host was very positive about the interview. The TruthBearer.org organization once again re-iterates its gratitude to the show for both the opportunity and for their treating Mr. Henkel so respectfully.

Advance orders for the audiocassette recording of this interview will eventually be made available only for TruthBearer.org MEMBERS.

Also See: CourtTV News

TruthBearer.org Media [Directory] Court TV Morning with Vinnie Politan March 28, 2006 - Response to "Big Love" September 05, 2006 - Response to Warren Jeffs Capture November 22, 2006 - Jeffs Hearing Proves Case not about Polygamy December 22, 2006 - How Polygamists Manage Christmas August 08, 2007 - Michel Bryant, Trial Correspondent (filling in) November 13, 2007 - Michel Bryant, Trial Correspondent (filling in)   [Members, Hear it online]